INT: ALL IN THE FAMILY, jewel in the crown of CBS, what gets you away?
GS: Second season I was AD, third season I was there. At the end of the season I did a pilot called WELCOME BACK KOTTER as an AD. JERRY MCPHIE was associate producer, heard about me and said if we take the show to CBS we should get GARY SHIMOKAWA to be the AD. It was an ABC show, couldn't do it at NBC where he was shooting CHICO AND THE MAN, and besides in those days NBC was old fashioned. An AD couldn't be part of it. Just the director. He came over to CBS, did a pilot, terrific group of people. I was assigned to him. His own experience had been film television, may have done one episode of CHICO AND THE MAN, but in those days you staged it then let the technical designer edit it for you. He had know clue on how to shoot it. JIMMY was a good producer because he had good people around him. At times he was a good director. He didn't like to deal with things that directors have to deal with. Wardrobe, set, lighting. I hated the set. These big sets, but I wanted to angle it around so he could get cameras. I had a lot of balls then. I changed the set, JIMMY blocked the show. I went to camera and his opening shot was GABE and his wife in bed. He had a shot that looked like it was on the ceiling. I said JIMMY this is video tape, you need a crane, 1500 a day, you have to use it the rest of the day. If that's what you want to do we can do that but you wont have cameras available later. What I used to do when I was an AD, regardless of who was directing I jotted down what I thought would be the coverage. I got to where I could realize what each director wanted. The ability to know a director likes it like this. JAY SANDERS once told me I don't have to tell you because you know exactly what I want. If you talk it out to me I can get it. I was right. He asked me for the script, if I would set it up. Instead of forty shots for the show he had 270 shots. It was one of the really terrific pilots. JOHN TRAVOLTA was 20 years old, I thought it was clear he was going to be a star. GABE KAPLAN, it was culled from his life. I said GABE has no rhythm. If you look at his act, it was different rhythmically. He'd have very odd readings, there was nothing you could do, but the kids were wonderful. JOHN would be a star. He was in the moment, understood the audience. He and BOBBY HEGYES each thought they were more suited for the other's role. I remember john's complaint after the pilot sold. He had all these dumb jokes, he was upset. I should be doing BOBBY's part. I said you are fine. I did that, that was a terrific experience for me. I met DAVID ROPER when we edited the show. For a pilot the show finished shooting at 9. Out of there at 10. This was a pilot. Very few pick ups. Shot at Television City, four cameras, we slaved two and I switched them. I had worked enough with the crew and the TV. They were hand picked CBS guys. In those days you could find 16-18 guys who could do a great job. All from the live days, took direction from ADs, they knew how to do a shot. When I first started, I would say don't forget to move left, he would laugh because he already knew. This was 75. So we edit the show there and I had JIMMY use and editor ANDY ZALL, MARCO ZAPPIA made him our second when he was 21. We got him a job on THE JEFFERSONS, and on this pilot. Me and myself, ANDY, DAVID ROPER and JIMMY. The whole opening, a great portion was my design. We hit it off great. He and ALAN SACHS who also created that show, they offered me a job with that company. When they went back to ROPER they didn't have enough money for what I had to do. They wanted me to edit all those shows, develop them, get directors, it was a little bit more. I didn't get it because they couldn't get the money. Then NORMAN moved to METROMEDIA, I AD'd GOOD TIMES for half a season. When I was going to leave I gave up my job. NORMAN, JIM DRAKE just came out and used him on a couple of shows. He offered JIM my spot on ALL IN THE FAMILY. He said there is an opening on GOOD TIMES. I did that for half a season. That was a very interesting show. A lot of stuff that went on. At the end of the season I get a call from JIMMY and I say I think there is a way we can work together. I say great. I have a show that's called MR. T AND TINA. About a Japanese man, quasi inventor. His uncle who they found in Guam thinking that the war was still going. You listen to the set up you think how did that sell. He said read the script. I read it, thought it was the worst script I ever read. It's racist. he said we are going to make this. He talked to FREDDY SILVERMAN on the phone. He loved JIMMY, he already had success. So anyway we made a version of that he wanted me to produce that pilot. I understood why. He was getting some heat, it was the first Asian show I can remember. PAT MORITA, SUSAN BLANCHER played Tina, a JERRY FUJIKAWA who had been in a number of movies. Played the uncle who still had his helmet. Then two kids, one of whom is no longer in business. JEAN and JUNE. One sings on Broadway, does voice over for DISNEY. PAT SUZUKI played the grandmother. Still in New York, singing but not performing as much. We wanted a character that was, the handyman in the place called Harvard, played by TED LANGE. As a result, he was the one person who survived that show and he got LOVE BOAT. [INT: And PAT]. Yeah, I told people later on I said what I thought PAT's best chance was was in drama. I never thought he was that funny. He worked too hard at being funny. He was known as the hip nip, I said PAT that's not going to last you along time. I think it's over.

INT: So you went to work on MR. T AND TINA?
GS: I went to work, did a pilot, hysterical, huge laughs. They had a routine inside the pilot out of old nightclub comedy. You know how LENNY KENT used to summarize his act and would literally go over what happened the first half hour. That's what we did with PAT. It was hysterical because people hadn't seen it before. It was the funniest pilot of the year, FREDDY PIERCE looked at it and said what is this. This has to be more real. We ended up dumbing down the pilot, made it more real, wasn't as funny. When we got the series it struggled. ERIC COHEN wrote the pilot, NICKY ARNOLD's partner for many moons. And then BOB and CAROL and MADELYN, original LUCY writers. One of the original four. But they were fun to work with. We only had 12, ended up with 8 on the air. The last show we did was a show which would have acted as a spin off for PAT and TED. We staged it, shot on Thursday. I directed it. Edited all Thursday, Friday night. Saturday I sweetened it. Saturday night it was on the air, Monday we were canceled.

INT: Now was that your first directing assignment?
GS: That was, all the directing I had up until then was co-directing, always because I was good with cameras. I was the booth guy, someone else worked the actors. But in JIMMY'S case, he would leave me with the problems. I would have to solve the stage problems. I had no acting career, and that was the most difficult part was solving the acting problems.

INT: At what point did you decide I want to direct?
GS: I thought it was around that time, I liked it. Liked what I thought I could do with the camera. I thought I could bring a look, on tape doing it like a live play. You have to be facile with moving the camera around. you don't have the luxury of stopping and resetting all the time. The style was you played all the way through. I thought I was good. The thing I wasn't certain I had any ability for was working with actors. I probably should have gone to acting school, which I didn't do and recommend for anybody else who does it. I didn't. I learned by being around it. I was very lucky that a lot of my career growing up was around terrific actors and directors. I worked with the best directors working at the time. I got to see what they did. How they got to something. How they worked the writing and the actors. That was a terrific experience. Plus I spent a lot of time in post.

INT: It's interesting because all of us get to directing in different ways. Some come from theater and come to TV, no technical experience whatsoever. Learning that language can be equally difficult. When some of us come out of the technical background, learning the actors is the challenge. Once you discovered you wanted to direct, how did you approach that challenge?
GS: I had to be more patient. A lot of times I would read a script, early on as an AD and I had a design of where everything was. When you apply that early on to an actor, he might have a new concept, something to offer I never thought about. I'm doing the thinking for him so I am actually reducing his opportunity to explore. I'm saying this is the way to do it. I wanted two shot here, overshoot here. I want you to cross at this point. It was all about me. I didn't realize it until I worked at it failed at it, and discovered that oh that's it. That's how it works. I don't think I really got to where I was comfortable until quite a bit later. Even when I had success. I was doing all those shows, FISH and pilot for you. I did 8 or 10 pilots, most of them for JIMMY. I think I began to feel really comfortable later on. When I allowed actors to find things, I then came in and shared the responsibility of making it better. After that, then it became a lot of fun. What's harder today is there is a real impatience with the whole process, certainly in half hours. Less blocking, less rehearsal. This is the way we do it. If it doesn't work, we rewrite it. Problem solving is not something, it takes a little time I think.

INT: I think there is no question, those of us who do the half hours feel that first of all a script in the morning, run through in the afternoon, there is not much time to find the values in the script. Once you made the decision to direct, did you continue then or go back to the booth? What was the trail?
GS: I had a back and forth. The apex for the first part was when I was producing, that was a short run to that place. When I look back on it now, I say I was a lucky son of a gun. How many people can move across a three or four year period like that. Then when I wanted to direct, I had to spend more time with that. I didn't look to pursue producing. I looked to pursue directing, and then it was harder. Now I was out there with everybody who was directing. I was a hot AD or whatever, I went back and forth a bit. I finished the year with KOMACK then, my first assignment all by my lonesome was LAVERNE AND SHIRLEY, PARAMOUNT on film which I knew nothing about. 3 instead of 4. I didn't understand resetting. because I was busy, here was my schedule when I got LAVERNE AND SHIRLEY. I was going to do a pilot for UNIVERSAL called BAY CITY AMUSEMENT COMPANY, WHATEVER HAPPENED TO DOBIE GILLS and ANOTHER DAY with JIMMY, back to back. And in between was LAVERNE AND SHIRLEY. I think I sat in the car before the meeting and said what the hell am I doing. I went down there one day when JIMMY BURROWS was directing. I still didn't know because I wasn't watching the right part. That was a hard experience. I don't think I did great. It was an interesting experience. Those were the days when CINDY was at odds with everybody on the show. She came in late, left early, had to go to the doctor. Complain about scenes she wasn't in. I had to deal with them in addition to my first gig. Camera-wise, I didn't understand the resets. I had to do it all in pickups, wasn't nearly as good as what was happening in the show.

INT: What did you find to be the biggest difference between the film and the tape set up?
GS: The tape set up I could see all cameras at the same time. Knew exactly what was missing, what needed to be fixed. If I didn’t have it I knew how to get to it. In film I didn't see it. You have to go behind the camera. These are the days before monitors, literally have to go behind every camera. They had to focus, be at the right length. Hit the mark or pick it up.

INT: Do you remember who your camera coordinator?
GS: First time, it was RAY DEVALLEY. He was terrific to me. Great guy who directed a lot of those shows, just wonderful. I talked to him said we should do a show together. But he was great to me. That was my first show, didn't do a god job, I don't know, I was upset about it but I don't know if it made that big a difference because I was doing three pilots for three different networks. I was doing a world I was very familiar with that I thought would never end.

INT: Now as an AD, you go the booth, director on tape you go the booth, now on the film stage you are out there the whole time?
GS: You are out there the whole time, it was different. There was a, being in the booth was kind of a shield to some degree. You directed the actors, got it done, but in terms of your relationship to actors its a shield. On the floor you say move to the left and you have to justify it. Learning those things was something I had to learn on the job.

INT: Now another element that you have to deal with when you were a director that you don’t deal with as an AD was an agent, getting representation?
GS: Yeah. When I first got the producing gig I asked an agent, it was PAUL BOGART'S agent. He had a lot of clients at NORMAN LEAR'S company. I asked him I don't know what to ask for. He said he would look at the deal as a favor. He did, we made it. It worked out great. When I started directing, I got an agent MARK LIPTON. He wanted me to fit that job with LAVERNE AND SHIRLEY in. He said take that job, we got to have that job. He thought the minute you got that you are going to get a next one. Looking back I guess after I did this I rushed in. I should have been prepared.

INT: So you do the three pilots, what happens next?
GS: Another pilot that got sold. It was with JOAN HACKETT and DAVID GROH, it was DAVID'S first pilot after RHODA. Eaten up alive by RHODA, by VALERIE. Didn’t want to be eaten up alive again by another woman. We were doing the pilot. Have you worked with JOAN before, I loved her. We get along great but she takes forever because she is working things out. One time she was playing drunk, to make an entrance, took her half an hour 45 minutes because she didn't know if the hat was on right. DAVID GROH said I don't care what the motivation is just go. That was a fun pilot. CBS loved what I did, so it sold. But I had a problem with PAUL MASON when PAUL ran JIMMY'S company. We didn't hit it off. I ended up not directing an episode on that show. Maybe another year I would have but that was one of those things. JOAN and I were good friends after that.

INT: So you go there?
GS: I go there, I left JIMMY'S Company. He wanted me to stay on and do some shows. But to do any variety of things, I could be a producer or direct. I wanted to do something else. I wasn't sure. I did some AD work. I forgot exactly. I did some work on some specials I can't even name now. I met my wife actually in the KOMACK COMPANY, we got married. She was working for PARAMOUNT. Casting. Then I left KOMACK, out of work for 6 to 8 months. That was 1977. Then my wife got pregnant and I said I better start doing something. I went back to ADing. PAUL BOGART wanted me to come back because his AD at the time was going to go off and direct something. There was room for me to do four shows and then return. This is for ALL IN THE FAMILY. One of the shows was the rape show. I went there and then it comes full circle. WES KENNEY called me, a pilot called LADIES MAN. It was a half hour segment with LARRY PRESSMAN. About a guy, who runs a women's magazine. I hate to ask you this but I'm running out of options, I wanted to ask you if you would AD the pilot. I said sure. I liked WES. During the entire pilot, all he did was promote me every step of the way. My memories of the three guys who did ALL IN THE FAMILY were terrific. When we finished the pilot and it sold as a series, I think they ran a half a dozen. When its sold, I got a letter, a note in the mail. It was a check. He sent me part of his bonus. I thought that was an extraordinary thing. Lovely thing.

INT: So this is something that directors, ADs, all have to work with and that is being out of work. What happens in between gigs, past that I'll never work again feeling?
GS: There has got to be a real choice. At least for me, are you willing to go back to something you've done before, are you willing to explore something you haven't done before. Are you continuing to improve your craft by going to class, learning more about cameras. I really thought that was what I should be doing. So I visited some acting classes. I went and observed, watched other people worked, offered myself as an AD. Of course, when I was an AD, for two or three years. About two years solid on CBS, I thought I was pretty good. I was getting offers from a lot of people outside of CBS to work with them. At the time I was at CBS, I think I might have been the highest paid AD in town because of the way NORMAN allowed them to get paid. They could put down as many hours. A lot of the times working around the clock. You have base pay, make a lot of overtime. I remember a lot of independent ADs. DICK HARWOOD wanted his deal on THE JEFFERSONS to be what I got paid. I made a conscious effort to go back and do the things that were necessary, plus I had a kid. I didn't, I had to be realistic at that time. Still, I wasn't at the place where I'm at now, where I would like to explore other things. I would like to write and produce, own, I was kind of finding myself. It was still pretty new. Phenomenal experience on a show that wont come around again. Besides that it was just new. It's about that time that I met DANNY ARNOLD.